From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: VA Police Use of Force at Medical Centers Description: The Veterans Health Administration manages medical centers that provide millions of veterans with necessary care like mental health services, critical care, and physical therapy. VA police are staffed to these facilities, and are responsible for protecting patients, staff, visitors, and property. However, there have been complaints about the VA police’s use of force. We talk to Gretta Goodwin—an expert in law enforcement and a director in our Homeland Security and Justice team—about her recent report on VA police and use of force incidents at medical centers. Related GAO Work: GAO-20-599, VA Police: Actions Needed to Improve Data Completeness and Accuracy on Use of Force Incidents at Medical Centers Released: September 2020 [Intro Music] [Gretta Goodwin:] It’s important that the VA know where, when, and why force is being used. [Holly Hobbs:] Hi and welcome to GAO's Watchdog Report, your source for news and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. I'm Holly Hobbs. The Veterans Health Administration manages medical centers that provide millions of veterans with necessary care like mental health services, critical care, and physical therapy. VA police are staffed to these facilities, and are responsible for protecting patients, staff, visitors, and property. However, there have been complaints about the VA police’s use of force. Today, we talk to Gretta Goodwin—an expert in law enforcement and a director in our Homeland Security and Justice team—about her recent report on VA police and use of force incidents at medical centers. Thank you for joining us Gretta! [Gretta Goodwin:] Thank you for having me. [Holly Hobbs:] So Gretta, when we say use of force, what do we mean? And does VA have policies governing that use of force? [Gretta Goodwin:] In our report, we outline the VA’s use of force continuum that they use to define five different types of allowable force. The first one is an officer’s presence. So, the mere existence, the mere presence of an office in uniform is technically considered a type of force. The second level of force is called a verbal direction. And this is where VA officers attempt to defuse a situation by using their communication skills. The third type of use of force is called an empty-hand control. And this is where VA officers may use their hand to physically control an individual. The fourth type of use of force is called an intermediate weapon, such as an expandable baton or pepper spray. The fifth level of force and the highest level of force is known as deadly force. And this means using force that is likely to kill or cause serious injury. Now, officers at the medical centers are only justified in using deadly force to protect themselves or others from serious injury or death. VA police officers rarely used deadly force at the medical centers. [Holly Hobbs:] And is the VA tracking when police are using force at medical centers? [Gretta Goodwin:] The incidents and investigations are recorded and tracked primarily by each of the 138 local medical centers. Police officers at those medical centers are required to log in all incidents, including those involving use of force, in an electronic database known as Report Executive. However, we found a couple of problems. One of them is that the VA does not have a sufficient approach for collecting and analyzing use of force data from the medical centers. A second concern we found was that the VA does not have comprehensive information on how frequently use of force investigations occur at the medical centers or what the results of those investigations are. We looked at and analyzed use of force incidents at that were logged into the database from May 2019 to May 2020. And we found several weaknesses. Most notably, we found that 14% of records that we analyzed had incomplete information on the types of force that were used. We also found that records in Report Executive didn’t always accurately identify the highest level of force used, and in some circumstances it appeared that the same incidents may have been recorded more than once. The VA officials also told us that the Report Executive database that they are using is not designed to capture information on investigations. [Music Break] [Holly Hobbs:] So, it sounds like there are different levels of force that can be used, and officers are trained to prevent the overuse of force, but that it is difficult to determine whether this training is working or how often force is used because of limits in reporting. Gretta, did we make any recommendations for VA for improving reporting? [Gretta Goodwin:] We made five recommendations that focus on how VA can improve its reporting, its tracking, and its analysis of use of force incidents and investigations. Specifically, we recommended that the VA improve the completeness and accuracy of the use of force data in Report Executive. We recommended that the VA include features in Report Executive to help analyze use of force data. We also recommended that the VA insure that medical centers submit records of all use of force investigations to the VA headquarters. Additionally, we recommended that the VA obtain a database to record use of force investigations; and once they’re able to do that, that they analyze the results of those investigations and any disciplinary actions. [Holly Hobbs:] And last question, Gretta—what’s is the bottom line of this report? [Gretta Goodwin:] The VA needs to improve its monitoring of police use of force through collecting and analyzing complete and accurate data on use of force incidents. VA police officers work in a very sensitive environment, and it’s important that the VA know where, when, and why force is being used. [Holly Hobbs:] That was Gretta Goodwin talking about GAO’s recent report on the use of force by VA police in medical centers. Thank you for your time Gretta! [Gretta Goodwin:] Thank you! [Holly Hobbs:] And thank you for listening to the Watchdog Report. To hear more podcasts, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, and make sure you leave a rating and review to let others known about the work we're doing. For more from the Congressional Watchdog, the U.S. Government Accountability Office, visit us at gao.gov.