From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov Transcript for: NASA Human Space Exploration Description: The Space Race may be over, but NASA's work is never done. The agency is currently working on integrating three human spaceflight programs for a test flight in 2019. We discuss some of the challenges ahead for this space exploration. Related GAO Work: GAO-18-28 NASA Human Space Exploration: Integration Approach Presents Challenges to Oversight and Independence Released: October 2017 [ Background Music ] [ Cristina Chaplain: ] It all comes down to space being a very unforgiving environment. [ Melanie Fallow: ] Welcome to GAO's Watchdog Report, your source for news and information from the U.S. Government Accountability Office. I'm Melanie Fallow. It's been 48 years since the world watched U.S. astronaut Neil Armstrong become the first person to walk on the moon. Today, NASA is still making strides to ensure that the United States remains a world leader in space exploration and new scientific discoveries. I sat down with Cristina Chaplin, a director in our Acquisition and Sourcing Management team, to talk about GAO's report on NASA's efforts to integrate three human space flight programs into one system. I asked Cristina to explain these three programs to me. [ Cristina Chaplain: ] These are the three NASA programs that are supposed to help us explore deep space and hopefully Mars at some point. You have the space launch system, which is the rocket that's going to lift a crew capsule known as the Orion crew capsule, and it's all supported by a big infrastructure called ground systems. They range from the crawler that might bring out the big rocket to the pad—you might remember that from the shuttle era—it also includes the vertical assembly building where they actually put the rockets together, and a mobile launcher that actually comes out to the pad, too, with lots of tie-ins to the rocket to help launch it. [ Melanie Fallow: ] So how do these programs affect each other? [ Cristina Chaplain: ] They do depend on each other to some extent, depending on the size of the rocket, the vibro-acoustics of the rocket, its design. Anything like that can impact these other pieces that we're talking about. So if there's certain kind of vibrations going on, on the rocket, that act a certain way, it affects the crew capsule, vice versa. [ Melanie Fallow: ] So what are some of the challenges NASA is facing in trying to integrate these three programs? [ Cristina Chaplain: ] So we did find that in terms of being able to be more efficient than they have been in the past, NASA is doing a pretty good job of that. They did cut down their overall integration work force and their approach is much more streamlined, but there's some downsides to what they've done too. For example, in providing independent technical oversight over the project, they have people who are dual-hatted. They might in one way be responsible for accounting for costs and schedule and management of a program, but in another way be responsible for really providing some independent perspective when it comes to technical issues and safety issues. [ Melanie Fallow: ] What are some of the potential risks of having people serving in those same roles? [ Cristina Chaplain: ] It can become a conflict of interest. You're under a lot of pressure to meet cost and scheduled goals, and on the other hand, if you have technical authority responsibilities, you're supposed to really raise the risk that might add to cost and schedule if you're going to address them. So, that kind of tension is what needs to be looked at more. Separating the programmatic roles from technical roles, technical oversight, was also a key issue in the past shuttle eras, especially with the accident of the Columbia shuttle. The recommendation was made to NASA to separate these roles, to keep them clear. It's the one recommendation that NASA never really fully implemented. But again they've been doing things on this program to address the issues that underline those recommendations. Our findings are they just probably don't go far enough. We really need to see some separation in those responsibilities. It all comes down to space being a very unforgiving environment. This is very complex work so you really have to take extra steps to separate these responsibilities. [ Background Music ] [ Melanie Fallow: ] I asked Cristina to talk about some of the cost issues involved in integrating these programs. [ Cristina Chaplain: ] There's also another issue in terms of long-term management of the program, that we don't know costs, what they'll be. NASA does have cost estimates for the first flight. It has cost estimates for a part of the second flight, but not good cost estimates for what comes beyond that. This is tens and tens of billions of dollars in the future. NASA is already investing heavily beyond the second flight, so it would be good to start having cost-based lines and ranges for the future. [ Melanie Fallow: ] What is the key takeaway from your reporting on this issue over the years and in this report? [ Cristina Chaplain: ] So, we've been reporting on these programs for several years now. We do find this is a very difficult endeavor to begin with. There's a lot of inherent risks. While NASA is managing these efforts better than it has in the past, we still feel like there's a lot more they could be doing. First in terms of individual efforts, giving them enough reserve and not making schedules too aggressive, but for all the programs really being able to forecast costs into the future and in this case really segmenting some of these roles in terms of oversight and program management to make sure you're giving this program everything it needs the best chance for success because it's going to be difficult enough as it is. [ Background Music ] [ Melanie Fallow: ] Thanks for listening to the Watchdog Report. To hear more podcasts, subscribe to us on Apple podcasts. [ Background Music ] [ Melanie Fallow: ] For more from the Congressional Watchdog, the U.S. Government Accountability Office, visit us at gao.gov.