From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov

Transcript for: AskGAOLive Chat on Home Foreclosure Rescue Schemes

Description: Online video chat with Lawrance Evans, Jr., Director,
Financial Markets and Community Investment 

Related GAO Work: GAO-14-17: Financial Crime: Foreclosure Rescue Schemes
Have Become More Complex, and Efforts to Combat Them Continue

Released: November 2013

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Ask GAO Live

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Good morning everyone, and welcome to Ask GAO Live,
the Government Accountability Office's live streaming program. My name
is Sarah Kaczmarek, I'm in our Office of Public Affairs. I'm joined
today by Lawrance Evans, a director in GAO's Financial Markets and
Community Investment team. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Thank you for having me, Sarah.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Today we're going to be talking about home
foreclosure rescue schemes and GAO's recent work on this. For context,
you can find GAO's most recent report on this, it's GAO-14-17, right on
our website, that's gao.gov. You can look for reports that came out on
the 29th, or you can search for the report number, again, that's
GAO-14-17. To send in your questions today, you can send them in on
e-mail using the e-mail address askgaolive@gao.gov. For those of you on
social media, you can also send in your questions on Twitter using the
hashtag, #AskGAOLive. So we'll be keeping an eye out for your questions
and tweets throughout the chat, so please do send us in your questions
and comments. So to get us started today, Lawrance, could you give us a
bit of background on yourself and your work at GAO?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Excellent. So, again, my name is Lawrance Evans. I
started at GAO in 2001 in our Applied Research and Methods group as an
economist. Currently, I'm a director in our Financial Markets and
Community Investment team. I work on banking issues, and we cover a lot
of issues in the financial markets team. Some of it involves trying to
stem fraud and abuse that can harm households and individuals, and this
work we're talking about today fits neatly in that category.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So our topic then, home foreclosure rescue schemes,
could you give us a bit of a background on the topic and GAO's recent
work on this?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] That's right. So, a foreclosure rescue scheme is a
scheme that promises foreclosure prevention assistance, but often does
not deliver it. And often leaves a person worse off financially and
still in the foreclosure process and could possibly lose their home.
This is our second report on this issue. We first reported out in 2010,
and we put out a report looking at the multiagency government effort to
combat these schemes, and then the Dodd-Frank Act, the full name of that
is the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Consumer Protection Act, required
us to do another study, and so to those ends, we looked at the available
information on the prevalence and nature of these schemes, and also, we
also looked at the multiagency efforts to combat them.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So let me ask you then, what makes people
vulnerable to these types of schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] That's a, a very good question to start off. So if
we could pull up Figure 1, that would give me the context to really
explain this. [ Screen: Map of Home Loan Payments More than 60 Days Past
Due ] So, principally, the defining characteristic is being behind on
your mortgage, and in that, there is several classes of individuals. As
you can see in Figure 1, these are individuals who are more than 60 days
past due. So, these folks are heading toward foreclosure, may be
worried, this may be their first time experiencing this type of
financial distress, and so they're very vulnerable to these scammers who
want to part them from their money. There are other classes, so, people
who are actually in the foreclosure process, are even more vulnerable.
And the most vulnerable are those who are in the foreclosure process and
have attempted to avail themselves of the many legitimate sources and
are not qualified for a loan modification, or forbearance, or payment
plan. So these folks are essentially looking for some means whereby they
can keep their home. And unfortunately there are only loss mitigation
alternatives at that point. And so they are extremely vulnerable because
the company may promise that they can deliver on, a miracle, and it's
too good to be true.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, we have a question here from Corey on e-mail,
and it gets right to this question of somebody who might have one of
these schemes affecting them. So Corey received a check for $31,000
dollars, for the summer, from something called an independent
foreclosure review.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Excellent.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And he wants to know if this is possibly related to
a foreclosure rescue scheme.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Excellent. This is a good question and it's good
that you asked the question. And if you ever have questions about this,
you should seek out reputable advice, and you can do that through the
HOPE hotline and I hope we, that we can show that a little bit later on.
The independent foreclosure review is a legitimate process. There were
errors in foreclosure processing that triggered a review of files and
attempt to remediate harmed borrowers. And so that check, and Corey, I,
I'm willing to bet that you were in some stage of the foreclosure
process during 2009 and 2010, and perhaps in bankruptcy, because that
amount would make me suspect that that is what the potential error was.
So, if you want to be sure, please contact Russ Consulting, and they can
verify that you are an in-scope borrower in the independent foreclosure
review and should be receiving these sums. Now by the way, foreclosure
rescue scheme scam artists, will always try to depart you from your
money, they will ask for money, they will never send you a check. So
that's another sign that this is a legitimate check and you should
consider it as such.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well we have a following question here from Amanda
that came in over e-mail, and Amanda would like to know, how can you
tell if a company is offering legitimate relief or it's not legitimate
and it falls into, you know, one of these scheme categories that we're
talking about here.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Excellent question. And again, if a person attempts
to assert some type of relationship with the government, you can always
check that by calling the HOPE hotline. If we can put that up, that,
that would be a good time to assert. [ Screen: Call the Homeowner's HOPE
Hotline 1-888-995-HOPE (4673) ] That's where you should be looking. So
you could call the HOPE hotline, and we'll put it up, yes, that's Figure
4. Now, a scam artist will always ask for money. Now advance fees are
legal, illegal in most cases, there are, there are exceptions for
lawyers. So one red flag is that you are solicited for, for money.
Another red flag are high pressure sales schemes, all right? So you, you
didn't solicit the help, they sought you out. Another red flag is that
they want to put a wedge between you and your lender, so they'll
encourage you not to contact your lender. That is something that is, a
reputable, HUD-approved, housing council would never recommend you do.
And then there are other telltale signs, as well. But those are the
major ones.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And you mentioned the HOPE hotline, we put that up
a minute ago, it was our Figure 4 here. [ Screen: Call the Homeowner's
HOPE Hotline 1-888-995-HOPE (4673) ] So people should call this number
if they're concerned that they may be being contacted by somebody about
a scheme?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Absolutely. I mean, that, that is one vehicle where
you can get advice. Whether you're in distress, you're considering your
alternatives to foreclosure, or while you're in foreclosure, you should
contact the HOPE hotline. This is HUD-approved housing counseling, and
they will give you legitimate advice as to where, where you should go,
but if you think you're scammed, you can go here or you can go to the
financial fraud enforcement task force, mortgage fraud webpage, which is
stopfraud.gov. Stopfraud.gov.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So our next question comes in from Pauline over
e-mail and Pauline would like to know, I recently read a report about an
FBI case where an individual paid up to $15,000 dollars for fraudulent
foreclosure prevention services. How can you help us understand how a
scammer can get $15,000 dollars out of a distressed homeowner?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] That's a fair question. The, the, that seems to be
at odds with the distressed borrower, that they can come up $15,000
dollars. But this, this allows me to, I'm not sure about these
particular scams, but allows me to, to articulate what some of the major
scams are. So, in some cases, this isn't just one lump sum. This person
is providing periodic payments to the scam artist. So, for example, they
may confuse the, the borrower and force them to, or convince them to
handover the deed to their, to their home, saying that they can then
perform all types of services for them, and that if they provide
periodic rent payments, that they can stay in the home. So, if you're
providing periodic rent payments of 800, 900 dollars, over the course of
the year, and remember foreclosure is a process, it can last as much as
a year or a year and a half, in some states. So you can see how that
could add up quickly to the amount of money we're talking about here
today.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And our next question comes in from Jacques over
Twitter. Jacques asked what is known about the scope of foreclosure
schemes and how many bad actors are we talking about here?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] So, that's a good question. Let me pull up Figure 2,
[ Screen: Graph of complaints about Foreclosure Rescue, 2009-2012 ]
which looks at our complaints on foreclosure rescue schemes. So this
comes from the FTC database, Consumer Sentinel Database. It is an
aggregation of data from a number of federal agencies, as well as
non-profits, and it shows, however, only complaints. So we don't know
about the actual incidence of, of these types of schemes. We can only
look at this complaint data, and there's other data I can talk about a
bit later. But this complaint data has some limitations. Some folks may
be embarrassed [pause] to report the fraud. Some states are not part of
this network that collects this data. So, therefore, we believe that
this, these complaints actually understate the amount of folks who are
witnessing these type of schemes. To be sure, there was a recent effort,
and there were, there were charges brought against over 100 scammers,
and they were associated with 17, over 17,000 people. So, and that was
just one sting, that was just one yearlong sting. So, we believe that
it's quite prevalent, we don't have actual numbers, and we're also
careful about the trends. Because these trends don't necessarily look at
actual schemes. So we say there, there's an upward trend of complaints,
but there's been increasing awareness, that's one of the things that the
financial fraud enforcement task force aimed to do was to increase
awareness about these scams, and so the trends may reflect some of that
increasing awareness as opposed to increased incidence of these crimes.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well you touched on something that gets to our next
question here about prosecutions. We have a question from Taz that came
in actually over our Livestream page, and Taz would like to know have
there been any major prosecutions?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Thank you Taz. And then I'll, I'll go back to what I
was talking about earlier. So there was a distressed homeowner
initiative, and this was a multiagency enforcement broad sweep to bring
folks to justice that were perpetuating these schemes. And the
distressed homeowner's initiative netted charges, criminal charges,
against 107 scam artists, potential scam artists, and of course they
were associated with those 17,000 people and they had, and their
schemes, they were able to extract $95 million dollars from those
individuals. They also brought civil cases against roughly 130 people,
and those were associated with a pretty large number of folks. But the
mortgage fraud task force, which is under the financial fraud
enforcement task, the Mortgage Fraud Working Group, excuse me, which is
under the Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force, has been undertaking
these broad enforcement sweeps to try to prosecute these individuals.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So, I mean, we're talking about really just a lot
of money here and also so many people that are potentially affected by
this. Our question, our next one comes in from Suzanne over e-mail, and
Suzanne wants to know what else can be done to combat this type of
fraud?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Thank you Suzanne. We didn't make any particular
recommendations in this report. In our previous report, we recommended
that the task force, the Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force, I'll
refer to them as the task force, that the task force develop clear,
long-term strategies to fight these schemes, as well as to develop
performance measures so they could track their efforts in this area, and
we also recommended that they develop long-term strategies specific to
these types of schemes, and we, they implemented those recommendations.
So they have a strategic scorecard where they can track their
activities. And so, in that area, I think, there's area for additional
coordination and information sharing, they have been doing that to a, a
very large extent.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] So then, we've touched on this a little bit, but
let's get into this a little bit more. What are the most common types of
schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Excellent. That's a very good question. So we can
lay some of them plain and so you can see the nature of these schemes.
So at, at the very heart they're confidence schemes, and they aim to
convince people that they can provide legitimate foreclosure prevention
assistance. So, one that's become very popular involves the bankruptcy
courts. When you file for bankruptcy, Sarah, what happens is that
there's an automatic, temporary stay in the foreclosure process. So,
let's think about that for a moment. A person reaches out, solicits you,
tells you that they can save your home from foreclosure, without your
knowledge, they then file for bankruptcy. So, it appears to you, that
they've done something for you. So you're willing to give them more
money, and that's why we can get to the sums that we talked about
earlier, the $15,000 dollar sum. So that's a very popular type of scam.
Another one is you may get a solicitation about a mass joinder lawsuit.
And that sounds like a class action lawsuit, it sounds legitimate, and
they ask you to pay a particular sum to join the class action lawsuit.
Legitimate class action lawsuits, you don't ask for advance fees, right?
Lawyers only get paid after the case is won. So that's another popular
one that's out there. There are other short sale schemes where I promise
you that I can negotiate a short sale with your lender. All right? Only
your lender has the, the right to, to agree to that type of thing. And
then the last one, which goes back to the independent foreclosure
review, is that they offer to do a forensic audit. They'll tell you some
outlandish tale that 95 percent of mortgage contracts are unenforceable,
and that they can go through and do a forensic audit because of, and
find some error that would invalidate the foreclosure. And, of course,
they always ask for advance fees.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Oh, one more type?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] And there's one more type that I really want to get
at. And that, that we also saw uptick in the number of schemes that
involved attorneys. So if we can pull up Figure 3 [ Screen: Graph of
foreclosure rescue schemes alleging attorney involvement ] , you can
take a look at these foreclosure rescue schemes and we've decomposed
them in terms of those that don't involve the lawyers, and those that
involve lawyers, and you can see that the majority of the schemes now
involve lawyers, and that's simply because lawyers bring an air of
legitimacy, and there's also some worry that there's a loophole, there
is a--exemption in a rule that bans upfront fees for lawyers, for
attorneys, and so some people think that that is one of the reasons why
we see an increase in the number of attorneys.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well given the gravity of the situation, you know,
do you think that, and this question comes in from Min over e-mail,
government agencies are doing enough and taking this seriously enough as
an issue?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Well, we notice some significant efforts that was,
that were undertaken by the multiagency task force and the working
group. In the areas of prevention, which is one of the most effective
and efficient ways to stop fraud, we found that they're doing outreach
to educate consumers. They are steering homeowners to the right
websites, the task force stopfraud.gov website, as I talked about
earlier, and then they're undertaking efforts to track and detect and
monitor these type of schemes. I talked about one of the, one of the
databases that is maintained of consumer complaints. So that is an
extremely important effort, because that information allows enforcement
agencies to understand the nature of these schemes and to share that
information. They've also taken steps to modify the,  the reports that
financial institutions supply to Treasury that allow us to understand
these schemes and be used in enforcement actions. And, of course, we
talked about these broad sweeps that are occurring.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well thank you. And just a quick reminder for
folks, you can send in your questions to us via e-mail using
askgaolive@gao.gov. And you can also send them in on Twitter using the
hashtag #AskGAOLive, and thank you for the questions you've been sending
in, we've got quite a few more here, so I'm going to go to the next one
from Kate over e-mail, and this is a really interesting question. So
Kate wants to know, should more resources be allocated to combating
foreclosure rescue schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Very good question. Very good question. It can be
difficult to answer, and let me, let me take several lines here. First,
it's important to note that the complaint data that we pulled up before,
which was Figure 2, represented only 1 percent of all the, all the
complaints that were reported to the FTC. So we've gotta right-size the
type of resources that we launch at this particular scheme. [ Screen:
Graph of complaints about Foreclosure Rescue, 2009-2012 ] We think that
the agencies have, have done enough, not to warrant additional
recommendations. And some non-profit organizations have noted that
resources was an issue, but others did not indicate it.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And our next question comes in from Zack over
e-mail and Zack would like to know, I know a lot of people are at risk
of foreclosure, is there anything that I could tell them or that people
should know so that they won't become victims in one of these
situations?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Right. One of the, one of the messages we would like
to highlight, and it's an important financial literacy message, is that
you should never, never divorce your lender. You should remain in
contact with your lender. Your lender has a number of different options
for you. If you are, if it's a temporary situation, there are
forbearance, there is repayment agreements, and then if it's more
temporary, there are loan modifications. You should never break off
communication with your lender, that's what the scammer wants you to do.
Ultimately, he wants to drive a wedge between you and your lender so he
can offer you the fraudulent services. And, again, as we pointed out,
and we can pull up Figure 4 again, please call the HOPE hotline,
1-888-995-HOPE, and you will get legitimate services [ Screen: Call the
Homeowner's HOPE Hotline 1-888-995-HOPE (4673) ], and I think that's,
that's the major thing that we can do. And, and avoid any of these
things where you haven't solicited help. Avoid these mass mailings.
Avoid that, that sign that you see on the, on the freeway that says
"foreclosure help."

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well and it also sounds like if people are asking
you to give them money or sums of money over time that that is also a
red flag in this situation.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Right. And it's illegal in most cases. Again, there
are exceptions for attorneys. The FTC promulgated a law in 2010 that
made it illegal to solicit these type of upfront fees. It allows some
exceptions for attorneys.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well our next question from Cynthia over e-mail
asks are there specific populations being targeted by these types of
schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Right. So, again, the defining characteristic is a
homeowner in distress, but within those, though, though are several
subpopulations that are being targeted. Namely the elderly and racial
and ethnic minorities.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And could you give us a little more details on
that, you know, why would the elderly be targeted or racial minorities?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] That's right. That's a good question. We didn't
particularly answer that in this particular report, but I think it goes
back to different types of schemes that are perpetuated by these scam
artists. Some are affinity-type schemes, so I approach it with some
common characteristic, you know? So, any way to get you to trust me.
Because, again, at heart, these are, these are confidence schemes. In
the elderly, there are a number of programs that are out there for, for
elderly. There's a reverse mortgage. If I can convince you that you're
not qualified for the reverse mortgage, but I have this other program
for you, you're more likely to trust me and provide me sums of money.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Our next question comes from Molly over e-mail and
Molly would like to know, why is it so hard to stop these types of
schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Thank you Molly. And let me go back to the, the, the
scams involving attorneys. So, routinely, as part of what lawyers do,
they charge an upfront fee, or a retainer. So it's very difficult to
determine whether the services being offered are legitimate or not, and
so that's one of the difficulties enforcement agencies have had in
pursuing these type of, these type of cases. And, in general, they're,
they're very complex. Right? They involve the bankruptcy court. They
involve, the scam artist wants to find ways to delay the foreclosure
process to, to extort extra money from, from the victim. So, you know,
they're very difficult and a lot of people may not report them.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, Jonathan asks over e-mail, I've gotten taken
advantage of by one of these schemes, is there any way for him to get
his money back?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Asset recovery is important. Unfortunately, in these
cases, the scam artists, by the time we, that they are caught, the money
is gone. So, unfortunately, it's, it's a very low likelihood that you
would get your money back, unfortunately. But, you know, you should
visit the stop fraud website, stopfraud.gov, they have a link for
victims of these type of schemes, or you can call the HOPE hotline,
which we just flashed up quickly.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And Brett would like to know, on average, how much
money are people losing in these schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] It, there's a range, and, again, remember, this is
based on complaint data. So this is a biased source of information, we
don't have a full, full, full population or a randomized sample. So, but
based on the complaint data, people are losing, on average, $2,500
dollars, median, median, on average, a little bit more because there are
some extreme cases where people are losing a lot of money. On average,
$2,700, but if the scam involves an attorney, the scam involves an
attorney, that's an additional $500 to $600 dollars, so, well over
$3,000 dollars.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Wow. And it sounds like these schemes are changing
constantly, we've got a question here from Tracy over e-mail who wants
to know how is the government adapting to these changing types of
schemes?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Thank you Tracy. A very, very good question. And,
again, I can go back to the work and the effort that the multiagency
task force is putting in the area of detecting these type of schemes.
So, these schemes change. Right? And as they change, they'll be
reflected in the complaint database. And, so therefore, the agencies can
then learn a little bit more about these scams, and, again, they're
getting more states to contribute to the, to this database, that the FTC
maintains, and so they can learn a lot more about these schemes. Because
one of the things they want to do is really monitor and detect these
type of things. And then, the suspicious activity reports, that
financial institutions provide, to Treasury, also gives, gives
enforcement agencies a chance to learn about the nature and scope of
these schemes.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, Matt has a really good follow-up question
here that came in over e-mail and he would like to know how many people
have been victimized by these types of schemes, and, and it may be hard
to know based on some of the data, it sounds like, but, you know, what
did you find there?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Right. So, you know, we say that we believe it's
prevalent, right? We, we believe that, there could potentially be an
uptick in this type of activity, but again, we just don't have the data
to give you the actual number or really speak about the incidence of
these type of crimes in a way that would be statistically valid, as we
say at GAO. But, we know it's quite common, you see those complaint,
that complaint database. There were over 20,000 complaints in 2011. In
2012, there was a slight down-tick, but we think that's because there
were, there were some issues with collecting the data. Some agencies,
some non-profits, had resource constraints. But, the data that we
collected through 2013 suggested there would be an uptick in this type
of activity again.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, and here's an interesting question that came
in from Annie over e-mail, and she asks if I know somebody who's been a
victim to one of these schemes, should they call the police?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] That's a good question. That's a good question. You
know, I, I would file a police report, but, you know, you can visit your
local FBI office, they do advocate that, because they're, they're
well-versed in handling these type of schemes, so you can find wherever
your local FBI office is, and, in fact, I think that's what the FBI
recommends on their, on their website, and so, you know, if, it's
important that you report it. It's very important that you report it in
some type of complaint database. Either through the HOPE hotline,
through the FTC, through the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau,
report it. Report it to the local FBI, just report it. And, therefore,
we learn more about these schemes, and if we can't help you, we can help
someone else.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And even if somebody is not sure if they are a
victim, we had a different e-mail from Christine that came in, and she
wasn't quite sure if she was a victim of one of these schemes, would you
say, you know, go ahead and report that anyway?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] I would report it. I would report it. I would talk
with someone from the HOPE hotline, they can walk you through some of
the red flags. Chances are if someone's charged you an advance fee for
foreclosure and mitigation services, it was a scam.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And we've got a time for about one more question
left, so I'm going to go to a question that came in from Peter over
e-mail who wants to know, considering the increase in complaints, you
know, would you say that efforts to combat them have been effective?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] I see. So, given that complaints has, has risen, one
might think that the efforts were not effective. But, again, that, that
is not necessarily true. Again, I, I spoke about the number of efforts
that, that the interagency task force is, is conducting in prevention,
and part of that prevention is awareness. So if there's an increase in
awareness, people who wouldn't ordinarily complain are now complaining.
So that could be driving some of what we see. Instead of the, the
ineffectiveness of the efforts. Right? Because we see prosecutions, we
see broad enforcement sweeps, we see increased activity under, under the
Mortgage Fraud Working Group, so it, it's probably untrue to make that
link.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] We have one more question that's just coming in
now, this came in from Kareem over e-mail, so we're going to try to get
you a quick answer here before we go, and this person, as an advisor,
and I see clients that are coming in and, you know, receiving contact
from different scammers and with the addition of an attorney entering
the field, you know, what can this person do, as an advisor, to do their
due diligence for their clients when their clients are being presented
with these types of offers?

[ Lawrance Evans: ] Absolutely. One of the things, Kareem, I think you
can do is make sure you are steering folks to the right resources.
Steering them to stopfraud.gov, I know I said that a number of times,
that's very important. You can call the HOPE hotline yourself, and put
your client on and learn about these particular schemes [ Screen: Call
the Homeowner's HOPE Hotline 1-888-995-HOPE (4673) ]. It's important to
know that they know that anyone who charges advance fees for schemes is
more than likely a scammer. There are free, legitimate help available,
and I would steer those clients toward those, those resources. Thank you
very much for that.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] Well, and thank you for taking the time to join us
today and for answering everyone's questions. We really appreciate that.

[ Lawrance Evans: ] It was my pleasure. Thank you very much.

[ Sarah Kaczmarek: ] And thanks everybody for sending in your questions
and for joining us today. If you'd like to send us any feedback, you can
send that to us over e-mail. The address is askgaolive@gao.gov. For more
from the Government Accountability Office, you can learn us about online
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